aria: ([avengers] thor)
valinor spider party ([personal profile] aria) wrote2019-05-01 09:27 pm

well that sure was a movie

Almost a week after its release, this afternoon I went to see Endgame!

As I said on twitter on my way out of the movie: what's the word for when you enjoyed 90% of a thing but not the 10% you're emotionally invested in? This is, obviously, a massive oversimplification, but my in-the-moment movie experience was very much, I'm enjoying this wacky time-travel fic a lot! but also whoever is writing Thor hates both him and me, and every time he's in a scene I just have to go utterly limp in order to not dissolve into absolute fury.

Uh in roughly descending order of happiness:

+ GOSH THE WACKY TIME TRAVEL FIC! The whole time heist was a ton of fun, especially all the bits interacting with Avengers -- Steve whispering "Hail Hydra" in the elevator, Steve fighting himself ("I could do this all day!" "Yeah, I know"), Loki getting gagged just because he was being such a little shit and kept making fun of Steve, Loki grabbing the Tesseract and running! DELIGHTFUL.

(Also, like, deeply fucking concerning -- their time travel logistics were AWFUL, oh my god, I don't care how much you insist that This Time Travel Isn't Like In Pop Culture Movies, or how you lean into everyone's subjective experience of their own time stream remaining intact, or what the rules are about the main trunk of time and its branches as explained by Bald Tilda Swinton; you've still just effectively created SO MANY BRANCH TIMELINES, and not all of them are closed loops! Especially the Loki one! At this point tbh I'm kind of assuming that the Loki tv show is going to take place in the branch timeline where Loki fucked off with the Tesseract, which is screamingly funny.

...but also you snapped a version of Thanos who hasn't had time to set into motion literally any of the events that made you have to do this in the first place! NEBULA KILLED HER PAST SELF! NONE OF THIS MAKES SENSE!! grumble grumble comics handwave, I know, and it's not like 90% of time travel plots aren't various kinds of total nonsense, but for some reason this one was just so annoying to me)

+ I've been mad about Tony Stark's arc ever since they did him a full lovely character journey ending in Iron Man 3 and then immediately torpedoed it for the plot in Ultron, but that said, god RDJ can sell pretty much every version of Tony! I knew he was a goner the moment they gave him a kid, but honestly, as a love letter to Tony Stark specifically, this movie was pretty good, and I didn't feel mad-sad about his death, it all seemed fairly narratively satisfying. (I also am ABSOLUTELY BAFFLED that this movie was the one where I finally pinged on Steve/Tony. wtffff, c'mon why didn't it feel like this BEFORE Civil War, that would've made all of Phase Three so much more emotionally satisfying)

+ Scott was fun! lol this is really all I ever have to say about Scott Lang, I find him inoffensive and mildly entertaining. Thank you for providing us with our time-travel plot, Scott Lang!

+ I definitely read a bunch of open tabbed reviews before writing this up and I've mostly seen people kind of pressed about Bruce, but I thought he was ... just fine? Bruce's characterization has been allll over the place, but I found his attempt to integrate his personalities into one functional being kind of charming! (Also the bit where he does desultory smashing in 2012 New York was really funny, good job.)

+ Steve was ... hmm. Okay, so I'm actually not particularly emotionally invested in the Steve part of the MCU or the fandom, and I absolutely see what they were going for with the Steve/Peggy ending, and in the moment I found it really sweet. Then I thought about it for five seconds and became Extremely Concerned about, like, how Steve could possibly function in the past knowing about Hydra and about Bucky, and how Peggy could possibly have kept him a secret, or if he made YET ANOTHER branch timeline where he took down Hydra and freed Bucky many decades ago while having a long and delightful life married to Peggy. Which, like, you go, Steve! But that's not really what's suggested, and also, as a character arc, it's ... shit, is the moral of the story that the new family you've done your damndest to make for yourself, and the best friend you thought was dead that you by some miracle actually got back, less important than settling down to a comfortable nuclear het life with your first love sometime in the past? Neither of those is inherently the superior option, but it's just ... let Steve stay with his people in the present, damn.

+ Not enough Carol! Like, yes, she would've solved it immediately, also you wanted just the core original team for most of it, but ... either let Carol do something and don't just pull her out once or twice, or, idk, don't have her turn up until the end? No, there's no "or," just: not enough Carol.

+ NATASHA, I loved all the bits of Natasha trying to hold the team together and keep doing good and then they just ... they just really did that, didn't they, into the fridge she goes. Also I was never invested in MCU Hawkeye, and like many people are saying, I would have much rather had Clint go! But I guess if you gotta give Tony a family and then kill him, you have to let Clint go back to his fam, semi-tragic white picket fences for everyone!

+ OKAY BUCKLE UP IT'S THOR TIME

Look. Look. I get that every single one of Thor's plotlines has been that something increasingly awful happens, and he has to buckle down and become a better person and push through adversity and triumph. I get wanting to do something else, or being interested in what it looks like when he finally has one terrible thing too far happen to him and breaks. BUT. (Leaving aside the incredibly gross ongoing fat joke, I fucking promise you that Chris Hemsworth unkempt and in a fat suit isn't funny for an entire movie, it wasn't even funny for five goddamn seconds) Thor's breakdown doesn't look like the fucking sad lazy drinking-and-video-games ploy they went with. Thor's breakdown looks like him throwing himself 500% into rebuilding Asgard, and running himself into the ground and doing WHATEVER IT TAKES, and refusing to go when Bruce comes to get him because that's in the past, you can't change the past, New Asgard is what's important, and then suddenly partway into the movie realizing with horror that he's turning into Odin. Sublimating his compassion in the burdens of kingship is his entire fear and the whole reason he's kept attempting to abdicate! Just. I know I've been thinking too much about Thor since 20goddamn11 but this isn't, like, a hard character arc to keep track of, it took me all of five seconds to know what you need to do with him in this movie.

Anyway I still loved every moment with Valkyrie, and a version of Thor that attempts kingship and begins turning into his father is still one that should probably give the rule of New Asgard to her! Go for it! I also loved all of their adorable knit sweaters, A++ Asgardians in sweaters.

But ... yeah wow it's weird to be going through a movie both basically enjoying the ride and also feeling incredibly sad and disappointed. A rough one, pals, and also lololol I care the very least about the Guardians crew, I did enjoy Thor and Rocket but please don't make me suffer through watching Thor and Quill interact, please don't make my favorite thing touch my least favorite thing, I demand Avengers-era Loki immediately materializing from the void to make this bearable. (He won't, he's busy on a tv show, I know.)

Maybe sometime in the next week I will write fic! A lot of my fic does come from a place of LET ME IMPROVE THE THING, but I'm just coming off writing an Adventure Zone fic from a place of sheer delight, and ugh I just kind of want to be writing things from a place of delight, aaaand this is the opposite of that. But, if I do write fic, it will probably be: 50% what I wanted Thor's last five years to be, 50% being extremely opinionated about how to do time travel in a coherent and interesting way (with, like ... everyone who time traveled still has their own personal subjective timeline, but y'all snapped Thanos out of existence BEFORE HE DID ANY OF THE THINGS THAT LED TO YOU DOING YOUR TIME HEIST, the "main" branch of time is now very much one in which Thanos ceased to exist circa Guardians 1, have fun with that); and it's me so it'll probably also be overwrought Thor/Loki fic, what era of Loki you ask, POSSIBLY SEVERAL.

Uh please feel free to have feelings back in comments, I'm sure I've got more where this came from.
alpheratz: (Default)

[personal profile] alpheratz 2019-05-02 01:39 am (UTC)(link)
You know what really pissed me off? After they fridged Natasha, the only female Avenger, and after being absolutely insulting about the ~viability of a Black Widow movie, that girl power moment during the battle. Whatever, it's too little, too late.

I honestly have been counting on you writing overwrought Thor/Loki fic, so I do hope you do that, although I understand wanting to write things that delight you. I do have a little scrap of headcanon that Thor initially wanted to be the one to wield the gauntlet because he was secretly going to bring back Loki. He didn't fight Bruce enough for it to really be the case, but I like thinking that it was.

If I have to watch Thor's stupid dick-measuring contest with Peter Quill, I'm peacing out of those movies, I don't care how great Thor is.
alpheratz: (Default)

[personal profile] alpheratz 2019-05-02 01:54 am (UTC)(link)
It was SO ANNOYING.

ALSO ANNOYING: the LGBT "rep" and Sam's heteronormativity. Fic made me expect better of him!!
starlady: The Avengers regroup in Midtown (Natasha, Steve, Clint, Thor) (more legendary and more desperate)

[personal profile] starlady 2019-05-02 02:33 am (UTC)(link)
The entire Thor thing was very BAD. Loki needs to reappear immediately, I am not okay with where they left that or with the fact that the Russos couldn't be arsed to do even minimal rewrites after Ragnarok.

I do want to see it again, but carving a four hour chunk out of my life actually takes advance planning.
sasha_feather: Retro-style poster of skier on pluto.   (Default)

[personal profile] sasha_feather 2019-05-02 02:45 am (UTC)(link)
*thumbs up*
tenlittlebullets: (winter soldier)

[personal profile] tenlittlebullets 2019-05-02 04:34 am (UTC)(link)
They could've saved at least two minutes of Back to the Future jokes if they'd just admitted that everything is branch timelines with a liberal dose of lampshade-on-head nonsensical crack. And maybe, if they'd given those entire two minutes to Natasha, she might've wound up with more screentime than fucking Rocket Raccoon.

The entire Thor thing was just.... so bad. So bad. Redeemed a teeny tiny bit by the scene with Frigga (augh my heart), but even that ends in a pep talk that the movie sure does interpret as "maybe what you're really meant to do is go ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ at three movies' worth of Kingship Character Arcs and pursue your true passion for outer-space basket weaving."

Steve's ending is... look, the only way I can rationalize the character motivation for it is that he's just fucking broken after this last round of losing a best friend (Nat is like... the only person he's close to? for five years?!) and time dislocation and reshuffling of who lives and who dies. And hey, now he's got time travel, so any of these time-fucked points in his life is as good as any other, right? Might as well camp out in the one where he has a future he doesn't have to create out of nothing and cling to with his ragged bloody fingernails until it's yanked away from him, right? But if that's what they're going for, I am very upset that they didn't even let Chris Evans chew any scenery about it before departing. Let him do the "soul-crushing smile while trying not to cry" face, you cowards.

Also, you know, the whole movie's creepy fetish for the idealized 1950s-style nuclear family, the fact that the actual 1950s are so far from a happy ending for this dude that comics canon had to tie itself in knots to explain the existence of '50s Cap, and the weird "found family is just a crutch you have to Get Over on your way to white-picket-fence bliss" vibes throughout. All of which just makes it feel skin-crawly and non-coincidental that Thor and Natasha, the ones who didn't or couldn't opt into that vision of Which Families Matter, are the ones who got shafted the hardest. Like, even Scott Lang's totally vanilla "ex-wife and her husband" family situation was written completely out of this movie. It gets more disconcerting the more you look at it.

Anyway, branch timelines, Steve shacked up with Peggy, rescued Bucky, had some unprintable things to say about Operation Paperclip, and the three of them maybe... waited until the McCarthy hearings were at least over or something... and went and found iceberg!Steve and became a weird history-meddling poly foursome. Clearly this is the way it happened.

In conclusion: gosh I'm glad that movie was three solid hours of Time Heist crackfic and nothing else happened. What a fucking gift.
kore: (Default)

[personal profile] kore 2019-05-05 05:41 pm (UTC)(link)
Also, you know, the whole movie's creepy fetish for the idealized 1950s-style nuclear family, the fact that the actual 1950s are so far from a happy ending for this dude that comics canon had to tie itself in knots to explain the existence of '50s Cap, and the weird "found family is just a crutch you have to Get Over on your way to white-picket-fence bliss" vibes throughout. All of which just makes it feel skin-crawly and non-coincidental that Thor and Natasha, the ones who didn't or couldn't opt into that vision of Which Families Matter, are the ones who got shafted the hardest. Like, even Scott Lang's totally vanilla "ex-wife and her husband" family situation was written completely out of this movie. It gets more disconcerting the more you look at it.

YES THANK YOU

Also THANK YOU for noticing that end shot where Hope and Scott and Cassie were together, I was like....where's her MOTHER and stepfather, that the Ant Man movies went to such trouble to not exclude and not make villains? Nobody cares?
snickfic: Buffy looking over her shoulder (Default)

[personal profile] snickfic 2019-05-02 05:13 am (UTC)(link)
Thor's breakdown looks like him throwing himself 500% into rebuilding Asgard, and running himself into the ground and doing WHATEVER IT TAKES, and refusing to go when Bruce comes to get him because that's in the past, you can't change the past, New Asgard is what's important, and then suddenly partway into the movie realizing with horror that he's turning into Odin.

PREACH. IT.

I don't really have anything else to say. I fucking hated every single aspect of Thor's story, from the very beginning to the very end.
sophia_sol: photo of a 19th century ivory carving of a fat bird (Default)

[personal profile] sophia_sol 2019-05-02 03:57 pm (UTC)(link)
thank you for discussing the Thor part of the film in more detail, I knew I could rely on you to do so, all the other reviews I've seen have had like, one sentence about why Thor was mis-handled in this movie. And ugh now that I have more details I am EVEN MADDER. UGH. I hate how so many people seem to, like, fundamentally misunderstand Thor.

Given that I have more or less stopped caring about the Main Avengers other than Thor and Natasha (AUGH), I'm not gonna be seeing the movie, despite it being 90% good. Why did it have to fall down specifically on the parts I'm invested in??
sophia_sol: photo of a 19th century ivory carving of a fat bird (Default)

[personal profile] sophia_sol 2019-05-03 08:38 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes I cannot believe that they believe Thor's trauma is somehow less worthy of taking seriously than anyone else's! I think it goes hand in hand with how there seems to be a general perspective of Thor as being Kind Of Dumb, and people who are Kind Of Dumb are obviously The Comic Relief. Which like...........oh boy is there a lot to unpack from those assumptions.
kore: (Default)

here from mcu_cosmic, sorry to blither

[personal profile] kore 2019-05-05 06:11 pm (UTC)(link)
YES THIS and ALSO, everyone in the movie who was portrayed as being 'damaged' - Thor, Tony with his PTSD, Natasha - wound up dying or fucking off. And Bruce, with that famous "I'm always angry" line, seems to have turned into one of the worst fanon fake Zen cliches. And Clint just gets to go home to his family? After five years of deliberately killing people?

....really for me the whole experience of this movie was kind of summed up with the great scene between Thor and Frigga, and then the LAST THING he will ever hear his DEAD MUM say is "Eat a salad." Just. Why. (Salads are big in Asgard??) It's so jarring and so OOC, and so obviously 4thlulz and just to get the audience laughing at him again.
polarisnorth: matt fraction clint barton raising an eyebrow at you ([comics] dubious)

[personal profile] polarisnorth 2019-05-02 05:53 pm (UTC)(link)
I knew you were going to be pissed as all hell about the Thor stuff, I was really sad when I read about the movie and learned that that they did that. And I am glad there is still a Loki running around, but I really LIKED post-Ragnarok Thor and Loki and I wanted more of it.

Anyway like I said before I've known since Ultron that the MCU isn't going to give me what I want, but I am actively upset by pretty much everyone's character arcs except for Bruce, actually. (I'M THE MOST MAD ABOUT NATASHA, FUCK YOU RUSSOS.) I get why they did Tony's arc the way they did (although I still think it may have been slightly prompted by fear of RDJ's influence), but idk how I feel about the thing with Howard and I'm sad he didn't get to live out his life in the exact opposite of what Howard's became (GOOD DAD MAKES WORLD SAVING INVENTIONS!).

I hate Steve's time travel plot resolution because it feels like exactly what Captain America shouldn't do? And I can't believe he would go back and just SIT on the knowledge of Bucky and Hydra for fifty years, you cannot tell me that STEVE "NO YOU MOVE" ROGERS would allow that just for the sake of "continuity". I think they PRETTY MUCH ESTABLISHED in Civil War, however much I loathe it, that there is no end he won't go to for Bucky.

The only thing I like about the five year jump part of things is that Cassie is now the appropriate age for Young Avengers and I THINK that's something that's gonna happen, and maybe THAT means that we will not only get Billy and Teddy but possible teen!Loki at some point, who I adore.

Those are my feelings, I have many, many more but I figure we can yell IRL next week or something.
lynnenne: (avengers: my place is with you)

[personal profile] lynnenne 2019-05-06 02:58 am (UTC)(link)
I am glad there is still a Loki running around, but I really LIKED post-Ragnarok Thor and Loki and I wanted more of it.

Me, too.
purplefringe: Amelie (Default)

[personal profile] purplefringe 2019-05-02 08:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Sublimating his compassion in the burdens of kingship is his entire fear and the whole reason he's kept attempting to abdicate

I would be suuuuuper interested to hear you unpack this a bit more! I love Thor but have not spent as much time as you thinking deeply about his overall character arc (and whilst I've seen Ragnarok 3 or 4 times it's been a long time since I watched the first 2 films), and would love to hear you talk more about this in particular.
purplefringe: Amelie (Default)

[personal profile] purplefringe 2019-05-05 10:41 am (UTC)(link)
<33333 this was SUPER INTERESTING, thank you! I loooooove this kind of character-driven meta. And you are totally right about it all (I just looked up a transcript of the end of The Dark World, and at one point Thor says 'I'd rather be a good man than a great king', which is exactly what you are saying here).

I think what I still don't quite understand (and feel v stupid!) is how Thor would go from everything you've beautifully outlined here to him basically turning into Odin?
kore: (Default)

[personal profile] kore 2019-05-05 05:50 pm (UTC)(link)
This is great. And yeah, that line is probably my favourite bit of Thor's -- "I will protect Asgard and all the realms with my last and every breath, but I cannot do so from that chair. Loki, for all his grave imbalance, understood rule as I know I never will. I'd rather be a good man than a great king." (Which is right in line with TFA's "not a great soldier, but a good man," and I love it.) (Then Loki's all "Is this my son or his GIRLFRIEND?" LOLOLOL jealous much? Aww.)

I loved the end of Ragnarok and then they blew it all apart with that one credits scene, I got this horrible sinking feeling and then the OPENING of IW was the death of all the Asgardians! WTF! And then of course they couldn't bring any of them back, ohhh no. Tony Stark's kid must be saved, but fuck all the people Thanos butchered. I have no patience for a lot of the plot decisions they made.
strixalba: (lammergeier)

[personal profile] strixalba 2019-05-03 02:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you for this summary of Endgame and also of Thor's arc! I have juuuuuust enough emotional investment left in the MCU to know that I would be furious actually watching Avengers 2-4, so this is the ideal way to consume MCU. (aside, I think this is one of the fandoms we share where we have a lot of opinions about it in common? sure, why not, of course it'd be the big sprawling infinity fandom) Also NONE of the character arcs described make sense, and I choose to go with your interpretation of Steve Rogers being totally broken at the end (and therefore making the scatterbrained decision to retreat to the world of polio and Sublimating Your War Trauma With Alcohol And Domestic Abuse) because that cannot be a happy ending, it can't.
lynnenne: (avengers: not technically a god)

[personal profile] lynnenne 2019-05-06 02:46 am (UTC)(link)
Thor's breakdown looks like him throwing himself 500% into rebuilding Asgard, and running himself into the ground and doing WHATEVER IT TAKES, and refusing to go when Bruce comes to get him because that's in the past, you can't change the past, New Asgard is what's important, and then suddenly partway into the movie realizing with horror that he's turning into Odin. Sublimating his compassion in the burdens of kingship is his entire fear and the whole reason he's kept attempting to abdicate!

This would have been SO MUCH BETTER and would have kept at least some of Thor's post-Ragnarok characterization intact, instead of throwing it all in the dumpster and turning him into a cartoon character.

At this point tbh I'm kind of assuming that the Loki tv show is going to take place in the branch timeline where Loki fucked off with the Tesseract

I am too, which would also do away with all of Loki's character development up to Ragnarok, which I also wish they would keep!
Edited 2019-05-06 02:46 (UTC)
hoarmurath: re-colored Jaheira portrait from BG1 (Default)

[personal profile] hoarmurath 2019-05-06 07:58 pm (UTC)(link)
I came here from cosmic!mcu and holy yikes your movie thoughts are 100% mine and also as a person whose favorite is Thor, thank you so much. You are correct over 9000.

I was completely unspoiled so I got all the terribleness like a whack into the face, and I honestly checked out even more and more every time Thor was on screen. Half of me is still pretending that didn't happen. I didn't even cry about anything because I was already so devastated about what they did to him. And then Nat and then I was like... "ok fine". And then people laughed every single time Thor was on screen, pretty much. Like...they did all of that to my fave? I've been into this fandom for a decade and that's how they do me and other Thor fans? Horrible. The worst. :/ I am really disappointed.

Thor vs. Quill is also like...the worst. I laugh mostly because Pratt's annoyed face is funny but...none of it is actually funny? At least not to me, it's just reflexive laughing, really.

Honestly as to writing fic, I have several pages in longhand that should be called "Thor has friends who give a shit about him" and should end up with Nat alive and Thor a little less worse off. And Steve doesn't run off and leave his friends in the present, thanks. Spite!fic at its finest.
hoarmurath: re-colored Jaheira portrait from BG1 (Default)

[personal profile] hoarmurath 2019-05-11 04:34 pm (UTC)(link)
It really sucked! Like I legit checked out of the entire experience the moment Thor came on screen and I had to face the fact that yep, this is the choice they made. I spent the entire weekend (we saw it Friday evening) in a disbelieving funk. It was almost like losing someone, I was that gutted and people being fine with part of it actually made it worse? I almost got into a fight with my stepsister's husband on Facebook about because he thought it was great and commented so on my very obviously displeased post, but luckily he backed off once I was like "meh :(".

Quill...yeah, I think I maybe liked him back in the first movie when we didn't know Chris Pratt is a jerk (for me this can ruin a character when the actor is shitty about stuff in real life), but after that...eh. Like the movies are basically about him but he's honestly the least interesting character in the whole team. *big shrug*

I am going to write spitefic about how Thor's compatriots don't abandon him because the Russos can get the right out of here with that noise, honestly.